Spring 2001: Does Capital Punishment Have a Future? Transcripts Web Chat with Steve Mills -- March 26, 2001 The views expressed in this document have not been approved by the House of Delegates or the Board of Governors of the American Bar Association, and accordingly, should not be construed as representing the policy of the American Bar Association, nor do they represent the official position or policies of the U.S. Department of Justice or the ABA Standing Committee on Public Education. Steve Mills is a reporter for the Chicago Tribune, covering criminal justice issues. He worked on three series for the Tribune on the death penalty. [Read Mr. Mills' bio.] Moderator: We're here for a discussion with Steve Mills, a reporter for the Chicago Tribune. May we have a question from Belaire High School? Belaire High School: How many inmates have been sentenced to death in the state of Illinois? [Belaire High School, Baton Rouge, LA] Mills: That's a good place to start. There are about 165 inmates on Illinois' death row right now. Since the mid-1970s, when the death penalty was reinstated, almost 300 people have been sentenced to death. But many of them got new trials and lesser sentences, such as life in prison. Belaire H.S.: Has the abolition of the death penalty ever been raised as an issue in the state of Illinois? Mills: Yes. Last January, George Ryan, the governor of Illinois, declared a moratorium, ending executions while a commission began a study of the death penalty. One of the things that commission could do, according to the governor, is recommend that the death penalty be abolished. Belaire H.S.: How have the wrongful executions within Illinois changed the public's opinion of the death penalty? Mills: It has changed it a lot. For one thing, it's made the death penalty an issue. For a long time, the death penalty really wasn't much of an issue. And it has changed the way people talk about the death penalty. It used to be that it was largely a moral question - is it right or wrong. Now the question is whether it's fair and whether it works, whether it’s accurate. Also, we've done polls that show that support for the death penalty has fallen. I think that's because of the wrongful convictions. Belaire H.S.: Do you think racism has anything to do with the court's decisions from most defendants? Mills: Good question. I think race, or racism, has a lot to do with the death penalty, though it's sometimes hard to pin down how. In some cases, blacks are sentenced by all white juries. And killers of whites are more likely to be executed than killers of minorities, several studies have shown. Those are just 2 ways. Moderator: Are there other ways, Mr. Mills? Students have been talking a lot about race. Mills: It's a good issue, and an important one too. You even see it in some subtle ways. I've heard lots of stories – although we haven’t written about this ourselves - of prosecutors asking the families of white victims if they want to seek the death penalty but not asking the families of black victims. The reason, it seems, is that blacks support the death penalty much less than whites. I find that very interesting – if true. Than there are other factors, like social class and money. Those are tied to race too. Belaire H.S.: Do you feel that it is right that the chief witness in William Brocy's trial received a lenient sentence in exchanged for his testimony? Mills: That's a big problem in death penalty cases. When someone is given something in exchange for their testimony, such as money or a shorter prison sentence, their motivation, and consequently their credibility, becomes an issue. You can't help but wonder if they're lying so they'll get the favor. It makes witnesses very undependable. It's worse when the witnesses or prosecutors don't reveal the deals. Moderator: Wilson High School in CA is having trouble getting online but they sent some questions. How did you get involved in writing about the death penalty? What interested you about the subject? [Glen Wilson High School, Hacienda Heights, CA] Mills: I got started on it about 3 years ago. There had been several wrongful convictions of death row inmates. But people kept saying they were isolated incidents. We at the newspaper felt we had to take a look and see if they were isolated or part of a bigger pattern. Also, some state committees were going to study the issue. But they weren't going to do all the work. We felt that was a good place to jump in. Moderator: Students from Fayetteville just joined us. Please wait until called on to ask a question. May we have a question from Fayetteville. One question only please. Fayetteville High School: What do you think about minors receiving the death penalty? [Fayetteville High School, Fayetteville, AR] Mills: Good question. That issue is one of the most heated going on today. And the question is whether someone that young really has a full understanding of their actions, and whether they're fully responsible for them. Moderator: Students from Edco have joined us. Mr. Mills, has your research led you to conclude that they are responsible or not? Mills: We haven't researched that specifically. And as a reporter I don't usually offer personal opinions. Reporters are supposed to be impartial, so they don’t favor one side of an argument or an issue. Edco: There is no Death Penalty in MA. There is a life sentence without parole. In you opinion, isn't that more of a punishment than death. [Edco Youth Alternative, Boston, MA] Fayetteville: What do you think about mentally retarded people being executed? Mills: I don't know what's worse [life in prison without parole or death]. But I think it's interesting that in Massachusetts the question keeps coming back. I know the legislature there just defeated a bill to bring back the death penalty. But what's worse? Who knows. As for the second question, unlike executing minors, we have written some about executing the mentally retarded. I think that's very possibly one of the things that will be outlawed in all states soon. The U.S. Supreme Court has two cases on it right now, I think, and the decisions could be very important. And I've met some mentally retarded inmates from death row. I don't think they've been able to fully appreciate why they're there and what they face. One of the worst cases I’ve read about was in Arkansas. Ricky Ray Rector was the Arkansas inmates. He was executed while Bill Clinton was running for president. Moderator: Here's another question from Wilson High School. What was the most interesting capital case you wrote about, and why? [Glen Wilson High School, Hacienda Heights, CA] Mills: That's tough. They've all been pretty fascinating. I liked the Steve Manning case in the Illinois series because it involved interesting characters - Steve Manning, a former cop who had gone bad, and Tommy Dye, the jailhouse snitch who I had to track all over the country. Edco: Would you be for the death penalty if you had a family member on death row? Mills: Hypothetical questions are tough. I'd like to think my opinion on something wouldn't change because of personal circumstances. So I'd hope it wouldn't change on this issue if I had a relative on death row or if a relative was murdered. I hope neither happens. Fayetteville H.S.: We live in a society that condemns murder. Do you think by executing people as a punishment we are being hypocritical? Mills: Does violence beget more violence? It seems like that's the question. And I guess I think it probably does. And I've read some studies that show that states that have the death penalty don't have lower murder rates. In fact, I think the study said they're higher. So that would seem to suggest that the death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent. Other studies have shown that, too. But on moral grounds, I don't know. I don't have that kind of wisdom. Belaire H.S.: Belaire High School is leaving the chat room. We would like to thank Mr. Mills for his responses to our questions. Moderator: Fayetteville, another question please. Fayetteville: Since journalists are allowed in have you ever witnessed an execution? Mills: I haven't. We talked about it during the Texas series we did. We wondered if we had to see an execution to be able to write about the issue. And I don't think so. So I haven't seen one. Edco: Why are so many people for the death penalty, but have a problem when women want to abort an unborn child? Mills: I think people tend to pick and choose their issues - sort of cafeteria style. And people often have views that some people think are contradictory. In Chicago, Cardinal Joseph Bernardin believed that your views on both issues should be what he called a ""seamless garment."" That meant they should be of a piece, opposing both abortion and the death penalty. I thought that was interesting. I think they're both difficult issues. Moderator: Have you looked into public opinion in other countries about the U.S. Death penalty? Mills: Most Western countries do not have the death penalty. The U.S. is with China and a lot of more oppressive governments in maintaining the death penalty. Consequently, a lot of countries condemn the U.S. for it. Moderator: From Wilson High School for Mr. Mills: What do you think is most wrong with the legal system with respect to the death penalty? Mills: The problem we've found is that it's too unreliable. Bad lawyers. Bad evidence. Bad science. Bad police work. So you just don't really know with the kind of certainty that you'd want that the people being executed are really guilty. That’s what we found. Fayetteville: Does Illinois have the death penalty? Mills: Yes, but there is a moratorium. The governor declared it last year because so many innocent people were winding up on death row here. Edco: If the government keeps executing the wrong people, and can only offer an apology to the families, shouldn’t they slow the executions down? Mills: Nobody admits that an innocent person has been executed. Nobody has proved it. So no apologies are offered. They usually don’t offer apologies when they let an innocent person off death row – at least not in most of the cases I’m familiar with. Fayetteville: What do you think about the recent school violence? Mills: I think it's awful. It makes me wonder how out of touch people are with their kids, and how angry kids must be to be committing that kind of violence. And it makes me fearful. I have kids of my own. Fayetteville: Since Illinois has reinstated the death penalty, has the crime rate dropped? Mills: I’m not sure. The death penalty was reinstated in 1976 or 1977. So it's gone up over the years, I believe, although the murder rate has been dropping for the past 5 or 6 years - at least here in the city of Chicago. I don't know if you can tie any of that to the death penalty though. Edco: Massachusetts doesn't have a death penalty but the federal government does, do you think the jury should choose this woman's fate? Mills: Are you thinking of someone in particular? A particular case? I don't follow. Edco: Nurse in VA Hospital found guilty of 3 counts lst degree murder and 1 of 2nd degree. Jury now doing part II of trial to decide her ""fate."" Is this jury duty truly fair to residents of MA which doesn't have a death penalty at all? Mills: Fair? I don't know what's fair. But it's often cases like that that prompt people to want to bring back the death penalty. There's also this issue: People wonder why someone who kills 3 or 4 people isn't on death row when people who have committed less heinous crimes are. That's the real question of fairness. The death penalty - or for that matter, any punishment - isn't the same everywhere you go. A murder that would get you executed in Texas means just life in prison [in another state, such as Massachusetts]. Fayetteville: Thank you for your time, Mr. Mills, from Fayetteville High School. Tupelo: What are your thoughts on whether or not more mistakes could be made in sentencing and execution if this law is passed? For example, say if an innocent person is put on death row and is not allowed time needed for appeals and he is executed, is he just an expendable loss? [Tupelo High School, Tupelo, MS] Mills: Some states, like Florida, have been shortening the appeals process. The governor there says that will lead to innocent people being discovered faster. I don't believe that. And in fact someone down there died on death row after 15 years or so and officials just discovered through DNA that he was innocent. Tupelo: How many/what types of routes must be exhausted before a prisoner can make an appeal of habeas corpus to a federal court? Steve Mills: You have to finish your state appeals. That can sometimes take several years. Tupelo: Our class has ended we have to go. Thank you this has been fun and educational. Spring 2001 Summit Home | Learning Links & Readings Student Activities| Participants | Transcripts National Online Youth Summit Home