Q&A with career coach Cordell Parvin

Cordell Parvin

At the ABA Midyear Meeting, the Young Lawyers Division sponsored a CLE program as part of its year-long project, "Do It Yourself: Creating a Blueprint for a Solid and Satisfying Career."  Career coach Cordell Parvin, who has worked as an attorney for 34 years and now focuses on consulting with young lawyers about their legal careers, spoke to the issue of taking control of career and life, deciding what is important, setting goals and reaching optimal performance.

YLD Chair Christina Plum explained that DIY, the division's member service project for 2005-06, was created in response to the fact that old-school mentoring is generally a thing of the past. "More than ever, it is imperative that young lawyers take an active role in charting their own career paths, seek out mentors, ask for opportunities for training and professional development, and request constructive feedback on their performances.  We have designed the project to provide suggestions and resources that help show young lawyers how to effectively do all those things, which can maximize each young lawyer's chance of having a rewarding career."

Shamira Youkhaneh, a third-year law student in Chicago, attended the presentation. "I have been to a few other programs that are supposed to help," said Youkhaneh, "but none of them made as much sense as what [Mr. Parvin] said about core values. It's a simple concept but it's so obvious that people overlook their core values and focus on everything else and still aren't happy."

YourABA was able to catch up with Parvin after his presentation and asked him how young lawyers could begin to establish their priorities in order to build a more satisfying professional and personal life. He encourages lawyers to use lifetime goals, annual goals and five-year goals to reflect on what they want out of life in the longer context.

Parvin explained that one of the reasons he was inspired to be a lawyer was because of a case by Clarence Darrow, "Melting Hearts of Stone," based in Detroit about a black family who moved into an all-white neighborhood, and about how Darrow argued the case before an all-white jury. "To Kill A Mockingbird" is another source of inspiration. "Who is the number one hero in all movies of the 20th century literature by far?," posed Parvin. "It was Atticus Finch. And indeed, we as lawyers have a lot to be very proud of for the contribution we make."

Q: On your Web site, you have a presentation that includes a slide with a headline that states that more and more lawyers hate their jobs. Why do you think that is?

I think large law firms themselves are somewhat responsible. In the quest for profits per partner we have created a life for our lawyers that is driven by producing more and more billable hours. When I was coming along I learned by watching and doing and being watched. We did not call it mentoring but it was. Now because of the pressure to make ever increasing billable hours we have lost that type of learning and special relationships. I often say that one of the worst things that happened is AmLaw publishing the profits per partner for the Top 100 or 200 firms. It caused firms to redefine how they measured their success.

Many unhappy young lawyers also are part of the problem. They view their work as a job rather than a career. They think short term and not long term. They know what they don't want but have not looked into their soul to determine what they do want. They do not set goals. Then, finally, even though they seek balance in their lives, they do not plan their life around their priorities.

Back to top

Q: Is it the individual who should be responsible for setting goals, or should it be part of a formal education, or should there be a provision within law firms to help their lawyers set goals?

It's a combination of the above. I'm doing a program for the National Association for Legal Professionals this spring, actually two programs. And in preparing for the programs, I was talking with someone from the University of Arizona law school and we were discussing what law schools don't teach. In my research, I've found that kids think that law school is really going to help them, but it doesn't. Law schools are so focused on the substantive side of the law that they forget the people side of the law and things related to self-reflection and things of that nature.

In law firms, unfortunately, in this day and time, there seems little time for the self-reflection and the people side. You know, law firms are so focused on profits per partner that the last thing they want associates to do is anything other than bill time – many law firms; not every firm is like that of course.

I was speaking last week with a partner at one of the largest law firms and he was lamenting that we have lost this developing time that we used to have when we were coming along. And I lament the same thing. I learned how to practice law by having a senior person say to me, "Hey, I'm going to be taking a deposition. Come along and sit through it." Or "I'm going to be trying a case." Or "I'm going to be meeting a client." It's a great way to learn. One associate would partner with one lawyer, another associate with another lawyer, and we'd kind of figure where we'd fit.

Q: Are people drawn together into a mentoring relationship, or is there a formal... program, if you will?

My firm, when I was in charge of career development, we had a formal mentoring program. But the best mentoring is informally. The only reason to have a formal mentoring program is to ensure that no one slips through the cracks.

I was mentored every day, and I have never even used that term. But there was a senior to me member of the firm who was my personal mentor. He got to work at 6:00 in the morning, so I got to work at 6:00 in the morning. Every single morning, I'd take my cup of coffee into his office and – for 30 minutes – we'd talk about setting goals and have other discussions about the firm and practicing. And we'd both, in fact he taught me this, we'd always work Saturday and Sunday mornings from 6:00 until about 9:00. First of all, those six hours of uninterrupted time was a great time to work, but also it gave me the opportunity to have more of that mentoring relationship. I think mentoring is so very, very important. So, he provided mentoring about life as a lawyer as well as the law.

In addition to the mentoring program, my firm also had what was called a shadowing program. We were what I described earlier – going with a senior lawyer to a meeting or a trial or deposition – if I were a junior lawyer, I'd go with a senior lawyer to see him argue a matter before the Fifth Circuit, for example.

Q: What do you hear is the biggest problem for lawyers professionally?

That really depends on the generation of the lawyer. For younger lawyers I think it is paying off loans and finding adequate time for their families. I think lawyers my age (59), when we were young we expected to be able to slow down in our late 50s. If anything, we are working harder than we worked when we were younger.

Back to top

Q: For the system to change, will it be the individual lawyers who will need to change themselves, or will there have to be change within the law firms?

Who wants to live the rest of their life – these junior lawyers look at the senior lawyers who themselves are making more money than any human should make but they're incredibly unhappy – and the junior lawyers say to themselves, "Who wants to live their life like that?"

The system has to change because our young lawyers are increasingly unhappy and saying they wished they had not even gone into law in the first place. And our clients – 75 percent of them would go to another firm if they thought that another firm would serve them better. I'm anxious to get on some firm's Web site and see something like, "We're no worse than the other guy." So, it's almost got to change.

I think what's going to happen is that our clients will force the change. Our clients have been largely responsible for diversity programs. Clients have demanded that. And I think our clients are going to eventually demand that we train, motivate and energize our lawyers.

Q: More and more, it seems as though it's harder and harder to separate career and family, especially in the world of BlackBerries and ever-accessible professionals. Care to comment about how it's possible to separate one's professional self from one's personal self?

My life, my personal life, and my law practice have always intermingled. Recently I had a client up in Toronto, and my wife Nancy came with me. And all the lawyers and their spouses went out to eat. I often say, my clients tolerate me, but they love Nancy.

Another story – I'm eating lunch with my daughter Jill a few months ago, and all of a sudden, I hear buzz, buzz. And it's kind of like it was in the Old West, I immediately went for my BlackBerry in my side "holster" if you will. So I'm eating lunch with my daughter, and I'm reading this email and begin typing a response. And Jill said, "Dad, I almost feel like you're billing me by the hour. Is it possible for you to turn the BlackBerry off – totally off – for just an hour and focus on me?" That was all I needed to hear.

One of the young lawyers this morning raised the exact question that you just posed. She said that in the era of BlackBerries, it's hard for her to focus. And I think it's an immense challenge. She was saying that when she was fixing dinner for her family, her mind was thinking about a client issue.

I had another participant ask, when I come home, how do I transition from work to being at home? I told her that she needed to do something physical; if she could do it outside, all the better. So when I get home, I try to run just ¾ of a mile. What it's a symbol for me is that I'm going from my work life to my personal life. Everyone needs that kind of transition.

Q: When you develop lifetime goals, annual goals, five-year goals – do you continually check to see how you're doing, or do you review them periodically at specific intervals – for example, every six months?

Both. And I'm always reviewing and changing them. Right now I have 100 lifetime goals. Based in part on what author Brian Tracy suggests, I suggest that young lawyers sit down and write down their 10 goals; then, without looking at their previous list, sit down the next day and write down 10 goals. And they do this for two weeks straight. And at the end of the time period, they compare the lists and when the goals appear on pretty much all of the daily lists, it's a pretty sure indication that that item is a priority for them.

When I was young, I had my goals written down and the paper folded into my coat pocket. And when I was on a plane or waiting someplace, I'd take the sheet of paper out and revisit my goals.

Back to top

Q: What's the first and most helpful question a young attorney who is, perhaps, a bit frustrated with his or her professional situation should ask herself or himself?

Why did I want to become a lawyer? Why do I want to be a lawyer now? What do I want to accomplish in my life and career? What are the values I hold most dear?

Q: Do you have recommendations for young lawyers – or any lawyers – to help them remain content with their careers in the first place?

Find what you are really good at doing, what you are passionate about and what your clients need. Second, plan your non-billable time and personal time based on your priorities. Stephen Covey suggests we plan based on our roles. Before I read that, I was doing it. I am a father, husband, son, practicing lawyer, coach, mentor, teacher. When I was with a big firm I was a practice group leader, I was in charge of attorney development, I was a business developer. I planned each week around those roles and I made sure that my personal roles were always at the top of my list.

Q: One of the items you often hear about and from lawyers is that they don't have enough time. How can lawyers progress in their careers but yet have time for family and outside interests?

I hear this all the time. There are 168 hours in a week. Suppose you sleep 56 (8x7). That leaves 112. Suppose you bill 40 hours a week and work 10 more hours on non-billable activities. That leaves 62 waking hours for family and outside interests. That is a lot of time. How a lawyer plans and spends the non-billable time will determine the quality of his or her career, and how he or she plans and spends the 62 waking hours of personal time will determine the quality of his or her life.

To have time for family and outside interests, you have to make it happen. You can't just let it happen. I am working with a young partner named Rusty. He bills 2,000 hours a year. Yet he also coaches his son's soccer team and baseball team. He teaches at a local university and he is active on the board of a local charity. He is "in the zone" in all these activities, including his billable hours.

As I said earlier, when I was younger I worked from 6 a.m. till at least 9 a.m. on Saturdays and I worked from 6 a.m. until it was time to meet my wife and daughter at church on Sunday. I did it because they were sleeping and did not miss me. It was way more important to me to be home for dinner on weekdays when I was not traveling. I also spent every Saturday afternoon with my daughter. It was our father-daughter date. What great times we had.

Back to top

Q: What's the most prevalent mistake you have seen lawyers make in their careers that leads to dissatisfaction?

Not thinking about what they want and as a result ending up in the wrong place. Some of this is dictated by the loans young lawyers must pay down. I think law schools also contribute to it. Early on, a student is made aware that it is important to get a job in a big law firm and that the only way to do it is to be in the top 10 percent of your class. By the way, even though all the law students did well in their undergraduate school, there will be a bell-shaped curve to establish each student's class rank. Many young lawyers look at success and failure, which is typically determined by how you compare to someone else or how you were doing before.

When I brought in one million dollars of business for my firm, there were others bringing in more. When I brought in two million dollars worth, there were still others bringing in more. The same was true when I brought in three million. That extrinsic type of success will never lead to satisfaction. We can only achieve satisfaction (what I call fulfillment) from looking within. Am I growing as a lawyer and a person? Am I developing lasting relationships with friends and clients? Am I making a contribution that matters? Am I living in accordance to my values? If the answers to those questions are yes then we are fulfilled with how we are living and practicing law. We are then "in the zone" and we are doing what we are doing for the joy of doing it.

Q: How do the issues that lead to apathy in lawyers with respect to their careers change as the lawyer progresses through his or her career?

I think once a lawyer is apathetic it is hard to get it back. I believe lawyers become apathetic because they are focusing on the wrong things. We have the mental power to see what we do as making a difference in the lives of our clients or as drudgery. All of us talk to ourselves almost unconsciously throughout each day. What are we telling ourselves about our work and how the day is going? When I begin to start feeling apathetic, I listen to music that inspires me. I re-read part of "To Kill a Mockingbird." I re-read the work and deeds of some of our most famous lawyers, like Clarence Darrow or Earl Rogers. While my practice will never include taking on causes that Atticus Finch or the living legends took on, reading what they did rekindles in me why I wanted to be a lawyer and why I am proud to be a lawyer now.

Q: What led you to change careers from practicing law to counseling and providing consulting services for lawyers?

I loved practicing law and still love practicing law. But, as the partner in my firm responsible for attorney development I found many lawyers who were not fulfilled with their careers and were burning out. As a lawyer at any given time I had 20 clients, but as the partner responsible for attorney development I had 250 or more. I think more than anything else it was the look in the eyes of the lawyers who I was able to reach that caused me to want to do more coaching and teaching. Secondarily I felt I did not have anything to prove as a construction lawyer, but I could be continually growing as a consultant, coach and teacher. My wife Nancy tells me she has never seen me come home so happy.

Back to top

© 2006 American Bar Association